[E260] Relationship Building, with Matt Ward (Part 1)

Jason: Hey, welcome back to another guest episode mini series today. This time I have Mr. Matt Ward and he is a funny character. I always enjoy talking to him. Matt is the founder of. Breakthrough champion. So in 2002, he started a web agency called in concert web solutions, which then he built and then in turn sold in 2018 so that he could focus on helping businesses generate more word of mouth referrals. He wrote a book called more word of mouth referrals, lifelong customers, and raving fans, which was released in 2018. And of course became a number one new release. He is a member of the national speaking association. He does. Speaking engagements, a podcast host. He has a whole bunch of things that he has done. He's very active in helping companies generate more referrals. And when we're talking about the world of sales and selling and combining marketing, one thing that's very powerful is referrals. And I see it a lot where people do referrals wrong or they're approaching incorrectly or just not doing it at all. And so super happy to have Matt on the episode with me so that we could talk about his perspective, which is actually a little different than mine. And we have some kind of debates about it. So here you go. Enjoy this conversation that Matt and I had about referrals, business, sales, life, even poker at one point. So enjoy. Matt, welcome to the Sales Experience Podcast. Jason, thanks for having me. I'm always excited when I talk to anybody, but I think this is going to be fun because we've talked a bunch of times literally, we probably could have recorded what we were just chatting about from a referral relationship sales perspective. You're basically a referral relationship coach master. And what's fun and funny is that intersection between kind of the referrals and networks relationships and actually selling. So yeah, I'm looking forward to this. Matt: It's going to be good. I think people like me like to build the relationships, but don't always like to ask for the sale fee. So I'm that portion before, I'm the referral consultant. So I help people get referrals, but in a lot of times, once we get the referrals, where. My involvement stops, but we still have to settle ourselves. Jason: So it's still sales. And that's why I say everything in life is sales, right? It's all sales, whether it's the hard sale air quotes, right? The hard clothes and they're trying to push somebody into something or just everything. I guess let's just dive into it because people know what referrals are. I'm going to assume people listening to this, they know what a referral is at some level. Where do you see that balance or that, I guess the tipping point, it's like referrals relationship into like closing and both what happens and then what I guess should happen? Matt: Yeah, so I think that if we step back and look at how I define referrals, right? To me, a referral is somebody ready, willing, and able to buy. And there's a clear distinction between a referral, a lead, and an introduction, right? They're all different things. And the way I see them and a referral is that person who is teed up, ready to go, almost pretty much pre sold and then brought to you by someone you know, right? So that's a referral. And I think that most times people want that more than anything out there in sales, right? And when I pull a room, 99 percent will say that the number one source of new business in their business come from referrals. But then I followed that up with how many of you have a referral? How many spend any marketing dollars on getting more referrals? In a small percentage, 5 percent might raise their hand. And those 5 percent are focused on getting referrals from customers and clients, which is a huge mistake. Because most industries, they refer one to three over a lifetime. But the partners, the centers of influence, the people who are speaking to the same economic buyer you are, they're referring one to three a year. So those are the people we want to build relationships with. And in my book, I talk about this idea that it's not just know and trust. It's that people do business with who they know, like trust and care about. And so when you talk about the tipping point comes when that level of care is so much that they don't ever believe that you're trying to sell them or trying to get business from them or trying to even get referrals from them. And then you're just showing up in their life in a way that matters, constantly touching base and you care about the success of their business. The reciprocity fact is going to kick in and they're going to care about the success of your business. And that means that they're going to send you Jason: one thing I've seen is that sales people worry about only being able to win if they use manipulation tricks, tactics, and hard closes. So they end up struggling to close deals. Make their quota or earn the kind of money that they want to make. If this sounds like your current situation or maybe you want to make more money in sales without feeling like you're selling, then my upcoming book called Selling with Authentic Persuasion will help. In it, I'm going to take you on a journey to transform from order taker to quota breaker. If you're ready to become an authentic persuader, crush your goals and create success in your sales career, then go to jasoncutter. com again, that's jasoncutter. com and pre order the book today. One of the things when we talked about it early on was the fact that you said you, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll let you correct me if I'm wrong. Do not tell people or train people to ask for referrals. Matt: No, in fact, if you're working with me and you're asking for referrals, I'm going to fire you. As a client, it's the worst thing you could do. Hey, Jason, I'm sure you know somebody right now. We've talked a few times, right? And so we know each other. We've crossed paths a number of times. We have the know trust to a degree, whatever degree that is. I'm sure you work with a number of clients, right? I'm sure some of them would like more referrals, right? Would you refer me? You see how awkward that is? Now I'm being very direct. Most people don't say it like that, right? But at the end of the day, there's not a single person I've met. That buys a car and wants to fill out the next form that they give them, which is, do you know three people? Friends and family who need a car? No, the answer is I have three friends and family. Yes, they drive. Do they need a car? I don't know. Are they ready, willing, and able to buy? The responses that happen when someone asks for a referral is twofold. You get one of two options. The first one is, oh yeah, I know someone. I know Jason. Yeah, Jason needs a car. No, Jason doesn't need a car. If that's going to be a leak, right? Which means now the salesperson has to go through the whole discovery process, sell them on their business, et cetera, et cetera. It's just, it's not ideal. The second response is this, dead silence, right? And it's because it's an awkward conversation. And the person does not want to answer you. So then they come up with, Oh yeah, I'll get back to you. And then you never hear from them again. This manifests itself in this most ridiculous signature in emails I have ever seen. Jason, the best compliment you can give me is a referral to your friends and family. Are you kidding me? Really? I think the best compliment you can give me is Yeah, I'm pretty sexy. Right? That's that's way better than a referral to a lot of people. And so I just think people need to get that out of their email signature and they need to stop directly asking people if they know someone who can use their service. Now most sales people And trainers of sorts will say don't ask it in a weird way. Ask it like this. Hey, I've helped you, Jason. Have I helped you? Yes. Have I helped you do this? Yes. Great. Now that I've helped you, would you help me? That's awkward. And you're basically getting a pity vote. It sounds desperate. It sounds like you really need the business when you're asking. Instead, I just say step back and care. Show up. Write handwritten thank you cards. Write handwritten note cards. Message people. Send voxer messages to people. Send, on your phone, you can send voice messages. Use them on LinkedIn. Write, send video messages to people. Stay in touch with people. You won't ever have to ask for another referral in your entire life. I don't. Works for me. Jason: That's it for another episode of the Sales Experience Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. If you find yourself on iTunes, can you leave the show a rating and a review? It helps other salespeople and sales leaders find the show. And please subscribe to the show and share episodes you find valuable with anyone you know in sales. Help me on my mission of changing the way sales is done. And if you're ready to work together, go to JasonCutter. com. Again, that's JasonCutter. com. To find out how I can help you or your company create scalable sales success. I will see you on the next sales experience podcast episode, and keep in mind that everything in life is sales and people will remember the experience you gave them.