[E289] Business Growth Evangelism, with Sam Dunning (Part 4)

Jason: Welcome to the sales experience podcast. Welcome. You made it to part four of my conversation with Sam. And if you're just catching this as your first time listening to the show, make sure to catch out the first three parts 'cause this will make a lot more sense when you watch the first three episodes. Listen to the first three episodes and then get caught up to where it is now. So here we go. Here is part four and I will catch you at the end. Sam: I think it's keen in the gap selling that says things like. You act confused. They say, I'm confused. When we talked before you said that your average order value is about a thousand pounds a month. And this product's only 500 pounds and it could get you five to six extra clients each month. So I'm not sure what the issue is here. So making sure you're taking great notes and discovery, asking great questions, and you can link it back to your presentations and it should help you close more deals. Jason: I absolutely love that. because most people, it's almost too late in the game to do the persuasion step effectively and handle those objections. If you didn't do the discovery in advance. So many times I've talked to reps or listened to phone calls, objections come up at the end, the rep loses the deal, right? It basically, they can't overcome it. And sometimes they'll hand me the phone and be like, Hey, can you close this? It's you destroyed it, like you missed so many important steps. I've also taken over phone calls where I've literally gone back to square one. Okay, let me ask you questions, right? And then I'm doing the discovery myself because it was missed. So that's a great point about the persuasion piece. It's not always just what's in the moment. It's what you did leading up to that and the foundation you built, and that's huge. I think that's perfect. So let's shift again. What's the most non sales job that you've had in your life? Sam: Oh, that's a good one. It's going to be working for my uncle. So my uncle is, he does countryside management. So he takes down trees, chops down trees, clears areas of woodland, all that kind of stuff. So I did that for a whole summer. Once when I just left college, cause I wanted to buy a gaming PC at the time. So I did that for a whole summer. And we were basically clearing fields of this weed called ragwort. Animals can't eat because it's poisonous. We cleared fields pretty much on hot summer's day, doing that all day. I was just sweating away, pulling these weeds, taking down trees, splitting logs, delivering logs to people. It's good for your fitness, really good health. Benefits, not for me that I'm a manual labor kind of guy. I like to talk to people on the phone. Jason: I like to talk marketing and sales. I love it. And that's a great story. And the one thing I'm thinking, I'm wondering how much of that experience helps cement for you later on that you want to run your own business, doing what you want to do and not have to go down the path of manual labor in the hot sun. Sam: Like my fiance can vouch for how bad I am at DIY. If I make something, it's going to fall down within five minutes. And I'm going to have to get my dad in, or I'm going to have to get a professional in. Jason: There you go. At least as long as you know that, right? That's the self awareness authenticity piece, right? As long as you know that, that's totally fine, man. I love it. Now, when you were growing up when you were a kid, was there something that you wanted to be? Like, what did you want to be when you were growing up? Sam: Funnily enough, when I was really young, I wanted to be a radio presenter, which I just forgot about. And I think that's probably part of the reason why I started my own podcast. At the start of this year just cause I like messing around with video. I like interviewing people and that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's what I wanted to be when I was really young. Jason: Did you practice and play radio announcer? Did you do that as a kid? Sam: Not so much, but I do sing all the time. Not that it's really linked. So that's more on the opposite end of things, but I've got a weird talent where I can literally hear one word. My girlfriend can say one word, or someone I'm speaking to say a word. I can instantly sing a song that starts in that lyric. Don't know how I do it. I don't even try to do it. I just do it. Jason: Wow! That's cool. I've never heard anyone with that talent. Now I want to test you, but Maybe for a different time. I don't want to have to listen to this. Yeah. Okay. So that's super interesting. And what's fascinating too is how much it's come semi full circle, right? With your podcast, with the stuff that you do, with the videos, the 2020 edition of radio talent, right? Where you just control yourself instead of needing to be on the radio. Sam: Yeah, man. All good fun. Jason: Yeah. So what was your first sales job that you had? Sam: Very first sales job. Let's have a think. It was, oh yeah, it was retail. Yeah, it was retail for me. It was working in a camera shop called Jessups, which I absolutely hated. So it was, yeah, retail on the street, dealing with customers face to face, no real training as such. So classic sales job, just go in, start selling cameras. And they also did they also develop pictures, develop photos, but they didn't trust me with that. So I was just out there on the shop floor, dealing with the general public. Just the classic scenario, really, where you go up to a customer, you say, hi, sir or hi, ma'am. How can I help you? And they say okay, thanks, just browsing. And then you wander around for another minute until someone eventually comes up to you and says they want to buy something. But I really didn't enjoy it, man. I absolutely hated it. One, because we had a bad manager. And two, because I found the general public was so rude. And that's why I love inside sales, because you're just talking to people on a phone or over the Zoom. Zoom calls, and I'm quite an introvert, so it suits me well. My fiance actually works in retail. She's a sales manager in retail. I don't know how she sticks it out, but she's able to tolerate people a lot more than I am. Jason: I think some of that's always important, right? The personality kind of behavior and preferences, right? There's people who are really tuned in for that. I also know there's people who really like, I've seen them try to get a inside telephone sales job and sit at a cube, and they just can't. They need the personal interaction. They need the movement. They need more than that. I think that's always interesting on the self awareness side. Do you think the public is rude, especially in a store situation, because they don't want somebody to try to sell them stuff? They really want a no pressure browsing situation? They feel like, of course, you're there to manipulate or trick them or force them into buying something? How much do you think is that? Sam: Yeah, to be honest, at the time, I knew nothing about sales. So looking back, obviously, can I help you is one of the worst questions you can ask to a person that's looking at stuff when most sales reps know that you should use some kind of pattern interrupt. So maybe just start with something that catches them off their feet. What is it about that product that's interesting when they're looking at just something that they really don't expect. Or did you know that this product did that? Or how's your day been so far? I can see you're looking at that. Just something that they're not expecting a rep to say is completely catches them off guard. Or did you catch this on TV? That's something that's really unusual. And then it'll start them thinking like this guy's a bit different. I might actually talk to him instead of palming him off saying I'm just looking or I'm just browsing. So yeah, had I known that, I might have had a lot more success. I think one of the issues for me back there was no targets or there was no bonus. There was no real drive to sell, which is really important. I feel that sales professionals need great targets. They need something to aspire to. It's going to push them a little bit further to, Jason: and I think there's always a balance and it's got to be done in a good corporate culture, which is you have to have targets. It's so important. If you want somebody to use sales and persuasion to move somebody from maybe not interested or not sure to closed, instead of just being an order taker, which is the term I use a lot. But you also got to be careful because when the targets are so big or the motivation becomes all about the targets, then the high pressure begins, right? Then you get the used car salesman, model that everyone's afraid of because they know why you're excited when they walked into that camera store and why you're really pushy because all is dollar signs. You just see this walking dollar sign. And so it's a delicate balance because I think that's what makes people walk into stores and be afraid of talking to someone because they don't want to get manipulated or tricked into buying more. Sam: Yeah, no, that's it. I think it links back to what we were talking about, which I didn't know at the time. But educating yourself in terms of sales and learning what works speaking to your colleagues and finding out what works for them, the high performers and understanding what they're doing differently to you and sitting down with them as well as constantly trying to learn about yourself too. Jason: I love it. And on that pattern interrupt mode, that's what I tell people all the time on the telephone, especially the cold call outbound is don't call someone and say, Hi, is this John? Hey, John, how are you today? Like instantly, you've just told them that you're a telemarketer cold call person. And you're going to have a tough fight. So do the opposite of what other people do. It's generally the easy advice. Sam: Definitely. Yeah. Most of the time. When I don't cold call that much anymore, because being a digital marketing company, most of our stuff's inbound through our website or through LinkedIn or wherever it may be. The one that worked for me, which I think Benjamin Dennehy told me about was, Hi, X or X, this is actually a cold call. Did you want to hang up? Or can I have 30 seconds to tell you why I called? 99 percent of the people, 99 percent of the time people will say yes, or the people will say, okay, you've got 30 seconds. Go ahead. Just catch them off guard. Jason: Yeah. I think that's just where the honesty comes in and just call it what it is, right? Let's not do it. The verbiage that I usually use is, hey, I know you weren't expecting this call. This is a cold call, but if you can give me 60 seconds, I want to ask some questions and figure out if it's even worth chatting more, right? Let me tell you about what we do. And if they're open minded enough, you'll get those 60 seconds. And then it's game on from there. All right, last question. What is your definition of success? Sam: My personal definition is, yeah, if we're talking about personal, I think it's getting the right balance in your life, really. So I'm pretty fortunate that I'm able to work from home and I would say flexibility is a big thing for me. So it's not all, whilst I like to be able to earn good money, whilst I like to be able to actually get my clients results and make sure we're actually helping their business, I also want to be able to spend time with my family, so it's useful that I can work from home when I need, I can play football, I can go to the gym. So I think balance is probably the best word that I could say. So being able to help your clients, make good money yourself, spend time with your family, and also do the things you like, whether that's fitness or whatever your hobbies are. I'd say that's probably one of the most important things personally. Jason: I love it. I appreciate that. And that's such a good list. Makes total sense. Sam, thanks for being on the show. Where's some good places to find you? I know you said LinkedIn. I know you spend a lot of time on there and you've got your show. Where's some good places for them to find you? Sam: Yeah, I appreciate it, man. So definitely LinkedIn. So please do connect with me on LinkedIn. Tell me that you saw me on Jason's show. Just search Sam Dunning. You'll see me there. Otherwise, I'd love for you to check out my podcast. It's Sam's Business Growth Show. It's on all the major podcasts. And we interview business leaders and experts from around the globe. Apart from that, if you're looking for help with digital marketing, if you're not getting enough inbound leads or inquiries, and you're tired of hunting for customers, give us a shout. It's webchoiceuk. com. Jason: Love it. And you help people all over or just in the UK? Sam: All over, my friend. Yeah, we've got clients literally many different countries. Jason: Perfect. Just wanted everyone to know that in case you're listening and you're not in the UK, Sam and Sam's team will help you wherever you are. Sam, thanks again for being on the show and going through this round of authentic persuasion topics. I appreciate your time and the answers. It was great wisdom. Sam: Thanks so much, Jason. Jason: That's it for another episode of the sales experience podcast. Thank you so much for listening. If you find yourself on iTunes, can you leave the show a rating and a review? It helps other salespeople and sales leaders find the show and please subscribe to the show and share episodes you find valuable with anyone, in sales, help me on my mission of changing the way sales is done. And if you're ready to work together, go to Jason cutter. com. Again, that's Jason cutter. com. To find out how I can help you or your company create scalable sales success. I will see you on the next sales experience podcast episode, and keep in mind that everything in life is sales and people remember the experience you gave.